SPN fandom opinion, FWIW--feel free to skip

[fufaraw]

So, here’s the thing.

I like Misha Collins. I respect him tremendously as a person, as someone who came into fandom, discovered its power and focused and directed it to do good in the world. I think he’s an adorable man, with a complicated but gentle philosophy of life, and a lovely family whom I believe he’s completely in love with.

I liked the character of Castiel when he was introduced, as a powerful angel who rescued a beloved character from the bowels of *hell* and restored him to earth, life, and the arms of those who loved and mourned him. I was amused and intrigued as this powerful character became interested and bemused by humans and the emotions and motivations of their lives. He was interesting, and at times, he was fun.

Here’s another thing. I’ve been a Supernatural fan since S1.01. I’ve watched every episode, some multiple times. I’ve read fic and meta and watched vids that echoed, amplified, examined, and turned on its head my theories and beliefs about Sam and Dean Winchester. Filtering the fandom experience through my personal point of view, both bi and grey asexual, I have always held the opinion that Sam and Dean are soulmates. That they operate as two sides of a whole. That the way they were raised, in such enforced proximity, each relying on the other for comfort, emotional and practical backup, and viewing anyone outside their family as a possible threat, that the usual sibling physical and emotional boundaries had dissolved in the face of practical need. Completely familiar and comfortable with each others’ bodies from sleeping in close quarters, hiding together, stitching and bandaging each other when no medical help was available, again, normal sibling boundaries did not exist.

But, because of my personal sexual point of view, it has never mattered to me whether or not the brothers’ closeness had a sexual component. It’s simply not important to me—that’s just sex. True closeness, dedication, care, and devotion exists between the brothers. If they have sex, I understand why and it doesn’t bother me. If they don’t, it’s neither important or necessary to their bond. Sex, in my world, exists outside need for closeness, dedication, devotion, and love. I’m aware that’s a really freaky concept for some people, but I live in here, where it’s the norm. I know among more recent, younger fans, the term Wincest has come to have much the same meaning I describe above—dedicated soulmates, without a sexual element. I think that’s disingenuous, because the term comes from the definition of sex between people related by blood. Sibling incest doesn’t squick me (oh, look at that antiquated term!), but I don’t think one can co-opt the term and change the meaning to suit one’s own view. Coin another word—soulmates works, without the sexual component.

On the other hand, I always recoil from the concept of any angel having a sexual relationship with any human. The power imbalance is abysmal. I understand some people crave that imbalance, one way or the other. For me, it’s scary frightening, and something I abhor. So, you know, me, not so much with the Destiel wanting. But you know what? It’s a fictional show, about fictional characters, about which people write fic, make playlists, draw, paint, collage and manip photos, and make vids. Your transformative art is going to follow your notions of the characters and their relationships, as it should do. It’s wonderful that you’re creating your own art, inspired by this show we all love. Wincest, Destiel, what the hell ever, you go, you know?

But here’s the next thing. We all are completely aware that Wincest is never going to be acknowledged by the show, much less by the network. Some of us have played wishfully with the concept, even while admitting in our heart of hearts that it will never happen. Fun to think about, though. And write about, and make art and vids about. But never to be a sanctioned thing on the show.

I’m sure fans have asked J2 from time to time for their views on Wincest. I’m darn sure they’ve been shown art, or had someone try to shove printed pages of fic into their hands. But most of this happened in the early seasons, and J2 and the PR people responded cooly. Most of it has stopped, by now. Most Wincesters smile and dream and doodle, and are happy to talk amongst themselves, and keep the notion alive in their circle of fandom.

Destielers, at least some of them, seem to be another kettle of fish. It’s as utterly obvious that neither the show nor the network are ever going to give the okay for onscreen Destiel. It’s not a possibility, no more than Wincest ever was or will be. But fans of the pairing seem unable to accept that. The ones who are hardcore about it have a crusade, they’re believers, convinced if they keep pushing and don’t give up, that the network and the show will cave to their wishes and give them onscreen acknowledgement of a sexual relationship between Dean and Castiel, complete, naturally, with love scenes. This is their total reason for continuing to watch the show.

Certainly not every Destiel fan, but the hardcore ones don’t care about the storyline of the show. They brag about not watching the early seasons, can’t tell you anything about a storyline that wasn’t in Castiel’s arc. Their sole reason for watching is the belief that one day, Cas and Dean will kiss onscreen, Cas will take the shotgun seat in the Impala, and Dean and Cas will drive off to hunt together. I get the impression they are supremely unconcerned with any other character’s welfare, story resolution, or anything else. The ones I’ve been reading lately, in a sort of dread fascination, truly don’t care anything about the show, at all, except getting Dean and Cas into bed together.

Which, you know, whatever floats your boat. Fandom is a weird, strange place, and the number one rule is, enjoy what you like. What’s kind of scary frightening, though, is that these fans seem entitled, entirely comfortable in asking cast members whether they support the pairing. Jensen has made his opinion clear. Jared has most often declined to comment. And while Misha can sometimes feed the flames in a small way, he’s never come out and said, in seriousness, “Yes! This is what *I* want for my character! Let’s storm the barricades till the network agrees!” I think it’s inevitably annoying, and at this point, edging onto irritation with all fans for Jensen, and for Jared, having his character, and in many cases, he himself, dismissed as unimportant or unwanted and disliked. But these are the stars, and they’re used to handling the situation, however much enjoyment having to deal with it may leach from their day.

However, when an actor who has appeared in only a couple of episodes, who has had no professional reason to watch previous seasons or search out ten seasons of mythos, whose character had little to nothing whatever to do with Castiel or his story arc, who may or may not have ever met Misha Collins, is accosted publicly and his opinion of Destiel demanded without warning?

That’s just rude, making him feel awkward and defensive at being ambushed in public. Further, complaining about it in social media, where he’s sure to hear about it at least secondhand, and putting pressure on him to even further address your desires? How can this in any setting be interpreted as anything other than bullying?

I’m certainly not saying every Destieler behaves or thinks or feels this way—or that there aren’t Wincest fans who don’t or haven’t behaved badly. But there’s a definite theme of entitlement here that’s very disturbing. And for me, it’s a little difficult to include people with that level of dedication to their belief, that casual dismissal of the feelings and opinions of the actors and the rest of fandom, and that attitude of entitlement, under the umbrella term of SPN fandom. They’re not Supernatural fans, not at all.

They’re Destiel fans. And for some, that’s a whole different thing.

Comments

[kalliel]

I don't have anything against Dean/Castiel as a pairing, but my brief tenure on Tumblr has certainly illuminated to me the ways of the EXTREMELY VOCAL TINHAT DESTIEL CAMP. O__o;; And I think you're totally on the ball here, distinguishing between that kind of Destiel-er and a SPN fan--and certainly, that kind of Destiel-er from a D/C fan. For me they're not quite on the level of the spn_g folks, but half the time I feel like surely they are aspiring to that. D;

[fufaraw]

Dare I ask...spn_g?

I just-- Poor Gil, what, his second con? He's enjoying the fandom so much, and he gets jumped out of nowhere with this, savaged on Twitter, and *he* steps up to apologize? I mean, what planet are these folks inhabiting?

[kalliel]

spn_gossip is a comm dedicated to, well, gossip about the actors who bring us SPN. But in my mind they're most well-known for being abrasive, catty, insulting and mostly delusional. And for their members who are adamant about Gen and Danneel being terrible, ugly, cruel, simpering beards, ad nauseam. :\

SPN family is SPN family, in all is many (and occasionally ill-advised) incarnations, but I draw that line at that bullshit. >:(

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Thank you!! This is a great post. You put into clear, polite words what I've been feeling about a certain segment of fandom.

[ephermeralk.livejournal.com]

here here ♥

[sophiap.livejournal.com]

Very well put.

[meus_venator]

As I said on tumblr when I reblogged your post, “Here, here.”
I think you nailed it cold. it's fandom bullying and I don't think any of the actors J2, or supporting cast should be subjected to it.

Destiel, Sam/Dean, J2, all fantasy and most of us know that you should keep your fantasy's in check. It's one thing to read, write, fantasize about a certain ship, but the guys shouldn't have these fantasies inflicted on them or their families.
Reality people, live in it. Stop trying to bully your way to getting what you want.

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I haven't been on tumblr for around a week so I'm in the dark as to whatever it was that happened with Gil. Are you serious that someone asked him about Destiel at a con? How absolutely ridiculous.

I agree with everything you've said. The hardcore Destielers aren't fans of Supernatural, they're fans of a fantasy they've built in their heads that bears little to no relationship to the actual show at all.

In all honesty I get really angry with TPTB; they could easily put a stop to all of the nonsense surrounding this by announcing publicly that Destiel never is, never has been, and never will be a part of the show. They just seem too damn scared that they'll lose viewers - which they would - but not in a large enough number to be more than a tiny blip on the radar. I don't think the majority of Destiel shippers ever actually expect it to be on the show, it's just the very vocal hardcore shippers and I don't believe their numbers are as high as they think they are. I also think they should ban ALL shipping questions at cons. They have no relevance to the show and it makes both the actors and a large segment of attendees uncomfortable. Fanfiction should also never be brought up to the actors. Ever. Period.

I love the show, but if they ever did go in the Destiel direction I would most likely stop watching. It would make everything we've learned about the characters in the last nine seasons a lie. I've also watched from day one and rewatched every season multiple times. There has never, ever, been anything to even slightly hint that either Dean or Sam are anything other than 100 percent straight men. Even Dean's little man-crush on Dr Sexy didn't make me think dean was bi - just that he was starstruck.

When I watch the show I see two soulmate brothers who are completely entwined with each other to the exclusion of just about everyone and everything else. I see an strong brotherly friendship between Dean and Cas, and in later seasons Sam and Cas as well. But to say Dean and Cas are in love is laughable. Half the time Dean looks like he can barely tolerate Cas - just like a true brotherly relationship where one minute they're your best friend and the other minute they annoy the crap out of you.

I would even go so far as to say I think the character of Dean Winchester comes across as a tiny bit homophobic, not in the hateful sense, but in the way a lot of straight men that just don't get it so it makes them uncomfortable are.

I'm going to have to try and find out about the Gil thing to see what went on.

[fufaraw]

Ah, okay. Yeah, me neither. Thanks for the warning. Eesh.

[fufaraw]

Yeah, it was a little unfair on him. I do think maybe Clif overreacted though, when he had her removed from the con and banned by Creation. I doubt the banning sticks. But it was not pleasant for Gil, and the supporters of the girl who asked the Destiel question are all outraged.

Time and place, people, and this was not it.

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it is an overreaction. Perhaps if they did start throwing people out for asking entirely inappropriate and embarrassing questions of the con guests then they might think twice. I really do think all mentions of shipping and fanfiction should be listed as unacceptable topics for question time - they are fandom things and not for the actors.

I've only ever been to a small Dr Who con, but I've been told by people that have been to all different kinds of cons in Australia that you often have to show your question to a staff member who says yay or nay before you even get given a microphone - they did at the one I went to. It seems like an extreme thing to do with a bunch of adults but people like that are proving it's sometimes necessary. The funny thing is there was a notice at the Dr Who con with subjects to avoid, one stated 'no ship questions', and being oblivious to fandom, I had absolutely no idea what that meant - I thought it had something to do with the Tardis, lol.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with everything you say here.

The hardcore Destiel shippers have an almost cult-like obsession with making it canon. They can't accept that this isn't what the show's about.

They’re not Supernatural fans, not at all.

They’re Destiel fans. And for some, that’s a whole different thing.

Exactly.